Lisa Paasche: AI Search & Digital PR: Warum Vertrauen der neue Rankingfaktor ist

00:00:00: The one thing that AI will never be able to replace is the very things makes us human.

00:00:07: And, you know... curiosity, imagination.

00:00:12: If anything we are really gonna need people to connect with people To be able get gets anything done.

00:00:21: We're making ourselves more stupid by using the LMS for everything and so when their cost goes up... ...we don't remember how do things anymore.

00:00:31: There's nothing like learning in real life.

00:00:34: that is just from the neuroscience part of being with people And having connection and seeing, being able to ask questions.

00:00:43: This is definitely how humans learn the best!

00:00:47: Welcome to a new episode of Marketing Meets Technology.

00:00:51: Here you hear insights on digital marketing strategies and technologies.

00:01:01: Have fun with this episode.

00:01:08: She built a Verve search from scratch into one of European's most respected SEO and digital PR agencies with the team over fifty people.

00:01:17: More than fifty industry awards, which is crazy by the way!

00:01:20: And then best SEO agency three years running... ...and in two thousand seventeen she sold The Agency to Omnicom Media Group but herself was also named Search Personality Of The Year.. ..and of course you could never sit back.

00:01:34: so she started... You have to say her name!

00:01:38: Activision, which means real true genuine.

00:01:43: And today she's working as a mentor and neuro leadership coach helping other founders and leadership teams to grow successfully without burning out.

00:01:50: I think that is something that it's truly, truly valuable.

00:01:54: She obviously has the experience of how work with teams and build an incredibly successful agency.

00:01:59: so there are some things i can only recommend.

00:02:02: So she's honest, experienced and with a rare eye for the humans behind business.

00:02:06: And that something we also had in our pre talk when we just talked before they drew this.

00:02:11: Also if you meet Lisa You'll be amazed how fast to get into an authentic connection With her.

00:02:17: I think That is one of The core strengths.

00:02:19: obviously She knows A lot about neuroscience as well and AI and the SEO industry.

00:02:24: so thats what We're going To Talk About today.

00:02:26: Thank you.

00:02:26: Oh,

00:02:28: my God!

00:02:30: That's just before the programme was so good... So I can't think

00:02:34: of this.

00:02:35: It should have been a podcast as well?

00:02:36: Yeah

00:02:38: it would've been like the XX one because we talked about so many things.

00:02:43: that is true.

00:02:46: what has your experience being with the SEO industry and AI especially in your field of neuroscience happening?

00:02:54: how do So,

00:02:56: obviously I had a bit of break after selling Verve and... ...I'd had small stint into the stand-up comedy industry.

00:03:05: And did that for awhile which was a lot fun because i've always been interested in people.

00:03:11: so although.. ..i worked as an SEO for like over twenty years my interest is human behavior and how to motivate them, help them develop.

00:03:25: And so coming back into the tech industry... ...and now AI being such a big part of it what is fascinating for me is just how fast things are going.

00:03:40: So there's like similarities within SEO and AI.

00:03:46: And also, can you please just know that when we talk about AI everyone talks about AI like it means the LLMs.

00:03:54: but obviously there's so many different types of AI.

00:03:57: But in this instance We're talking about AI search and the Llms and how that is evolving now.

00:04:03: for me I think It's just SEO bot in a different medium.

00:04:08: There are some differences, of course.

00:04:11: And for me the biggest difference is that now digital PR and the trust metrics will be even more important Not that they necessarily are right Now.

00:04:24: if anything I feel like Right now AI search it's a bit like SEO in two thousand nine.

00:04:29: Oh yeah Where citation and shit works Like what?

00:04:34: But What I am What I'm really interested in and what i'm concerned about is just want an impact AI has on people.

00:04:47: And our world's getting smaller.

00:04:48: so like we've known each other for quite a while Tim, you know?

00:04:55: how much social media is impacting the world.

00:04:59: And I remember, I think it was probably back in two thousand sixteen when everything was changing and American politics are trying to get this big group of SEOs involved in helping make sure that things didn't go completely to shit but anyway.

00:05:15: But they interesting thing is that Social Media has for decades triggered us into wanting more, as in like we are basically slaves to doping of looking at Instagram, TikTok etc.

00:05:34: Now now we're getting AI in this as well, where we're having such deep conversation with the LLMs.

00:05:42: Sharing our problems sharing our views getting the inputs Getting it to write stuff for us.

00:05:47: We are making a world a bit smaller and we not get enough connection Which means that from a neuroscience point of view... ...we are more living in our sympathetic nervous system which is our fight or flight.

00:06:03: We cannot think logically or in the future because our prefrontal cortex disengages.

00:06:09: So what we actually need and what is the answer to this, it's... Actually we need to go into parasympathetic nervous system where we rest and digest and engage their prefrontial cortex so that they can plan and see things forward.

00:06:29: able to do that, one of we really need more connection.

00:06:33: We need more human connection not less.

00:06:36: and I'm a bit concerned that be-we are going very fast forward into a world where... Where we're not aware how much is hijacking our nervous system?

00:06:48: And let's talk about something that fits perfectly in this question what you just said.

00:06:53: so A lot companies now laying off people And agencies, service providers and all companies are like oh yeah we've got Claude now.

00:07:06: We have Judgeability here but no employees anymore.

00:07:10: What do you think about this?

00:07:12: Do you think that will work even though if you say okay Claude will five X in the next two years in quality?

00:07:19: No I really don't because The one thing that AI would never be able to replace is the very thing that makes us human.

00:07:31: And, you know curiosity imagination connection the senses The movement and will all of this that make us humans.

00:07:49: we need it.

00:07:51: so cutting cutting the people out of work, I think this is going to backfire so badly.

00:07:58: And there's loads of things that it can help with processes frameworks like making things go faster.

00:08:05: sure but you're still gonna need People.

00:08:08: if anything we are really Gonna Need people To connect With people too be able to get gets Anything done and If not, we will end up like that movie.

00:08:20: We talked about in the pre-chat with Bruce Willis where no one is moving anywhere and Noone knows how to connect at all.

00:08:28: And...and That would be terrible.

00:08:29: But I do think also i think we are awfulising this a bit Like In my opinion This race especially with LLMs like Claude & ChatDBT.

00:08:40: They aren't borrowed time they're .com.

00:08:43: boom that happened There, those shareholders are going to need some money back and they're losing money every day.

00:08:53: So it's gonna become really expensive To use AI for a lot of these things.

00:09:01: And if that doesn't want be the same players.

00:09:03: That is exactly something that German you know him probably Pip Kleckner obviously from from SEO Oktoberfest.

00:09:11: Oh yeah He said as well.

00:09:13: he said like don't be fooled AI is highly subsidized right now, all these tokens.

00:09:20: And once you've gotten hooked onto this and you're really using it every day when they hike up the price of five X your cost efficiency looks very different.

00:09:33: This race still going to go down.

00:09:35: The prices are gonna go down.

00:09:38: They tend get cheaper with more power.

00:09:40: But if we look at Google Workspace it used to cost like five dollars.

00:09:46: Now we're at sixteen and they just increase the end, We couldn't get out.

00:09:50: so It is kind of like that.

00:09:51: you have to think about this.

00:09:52: And then at some point I've seen people using millions Of tokens to replace work.

00:09:57: That has been done by humans At some point.

00:09:59: um...it doesn't make that much sense.

00:10:00: But if there's efficiency part i agree one hundred percent.

00:10:03: Like coding has gotten faster Making presentations Has gotten faster.

00:10:08: You know stupid stuff but do be honest get in your car, you don't think about how the car works.

00:10:15: You just drive a cart to work right or you drive the card for shopping and this was different fifty years ago?

00:10:20: You had to like turn on the car check everything and Get The Thing started And even before that yet find the horses and ride them.

00:10:27: So yeah so you know This is normal technology advance and I Think some things That we've been doing as SAOs.

00:10:36: We've known us marketers and service providers.

00:10:39: They will vanish.

00:10:41: Do you new things on top of the things and provide service with humans?

00:10:48: Yeah, exactly.

00:10:50: And it will be totally different providers to remember.

00:10:52: when I first started like working in internet industry was Alta Vista who remembers them all different players.

00:11:03: so everything's gonna change but also if We are making ourselves more stupid by using the LMS for everything.

00:11:15: And so when that cost goes up, we can't...we don't remember how to do things anymore.

00:11:20: and also AI as it is doesn't have the curiosity imagination of a human.

00:11:26: It just creates stuff based on what already exists.

00:11:30: Yes!

00:11:35: LMS a lot for criticizing my own thinking or like strategizing it, but coming up with new things and especially things that will resonate with other people.

00:11:50: Just look at LinkedIn.

00:11:52: is now just AI talking to

00:11:55: the

00:11:56: AI?

00:11:57: Yeah!

00:11:57: It's everything in one sentence and says kind of same thing comment using AI and like.

00:12:07: it's not much point.

00:12:09: I'm not reading anything on there anymore, so is that actually valuable then?

00:12:14: And also think if my criticised LinkedIn as well It always the same style.

00:12:20: oh My biggest mistake in my business career was this.

00:12:22: but at The end give me a lead.

00:12:25: i'm amazing.

00:12:26: yeah you know its kind of Like.

00:12:27: it's so fake.

00:12:28: That's my biggest problem.

00:12:32: But this

00:12:32: LinkedIn is a new level of fakeness.

00:12:34: It's really incredible, but obviously we post on LinkedIn as well... I agree!

00:12:42: I find it quite boring and I think LinkedIn has to do something against that.

00:12:45: by the way Reddit did something which i found really fascinating.

00:12:48: so We talked about citations right?

00:12:50: Citations work really Well So Obviously like in certain brand areas when you look at the data.

00:12:57: Reddit is one of the most cited platforms where the LLM gets their information from, which makes sense.

00:13:02: It's a great platform.

00:13:03: So obviously what did all SEOs do?

00:13:05: Well they started creating accounts and starting posting on reddit and doing citations.

00:13:09: Obviously this was hundred percent foreseeable.

00:13:13: And what I found really interesting—and we've been impacted by it as well actually— Reddit has aggressively changed rules and aggressively cut down on AI postings and uses, deleted a lot of accounts that did not seem as real users.

00:13:28: And I found this really interesting because actually it makes the platform better.

00:13:35: It keeps the platform alive and LinkedIn should probably do something similar.

00:13:42: This fascinates me.

00:13:43: Do you remember back in two thousand sixteen we had all these chats about how to figure out whether something was fake news or no?

00:13:50: And we were talking about, you could easily do that by doing the opposite like what their assertions is to and find where they're original content.

00:13:59: There should be some kind of metric for measuring the likelihood of something being real conversation or a connection.

00:14:08: I think this why podcasting will so well?

00:14:13: because it's much harder when you can see video podcasting specifically I think it is such a good channel.

00:14:23: And in AI search for trust, and this is the major difference with AI Search and SEO that AI Search has more capability to try to figure out way of measuring trust in different ways.

00:14:41: so back then...I started talking about how social media would influence SU and how that should be a trust metric.

00:14:51: And everyone laughed, but you know it isn't just about links or Reddit or citations is about what brand... What things are you doing?

00:15:02: That is real!

00:15:05: How can AI figure out whether-what ARE the most real

00:15:10: metrics?!

00:15:13: It kind of goes back to do.

00:15:15: remember Ralph Orther when google made us all fucking to tag that shit.

00:15:20: we're like okay but do that for you?

00:15:22: yeah and i found well author super interesting because that was the indication that they were not only looking at sites as their ranking a page rank for pages and sites, but also for authors.

00:15:37: Now that makes a lot more sense.

00:15:39: so if you're now talking about trust metrics in someone being on a podcast or not being on social media it becomes a little easier to see who are the real people?

00:15:49: And Who Are Saying What?

00:15:52: Can You Measure Whether That Kind Of Trust Metric of That Person Is Higher?

00:15:59: Therefore Would that be part of the visibility scoring on AI search?

00:16:08: It actually made so much sense because obviously like if you're someone who's, let's say for instance LinkedIn or have a big blog and write something somewhere else.

00:16:18: And this can't connected then obviously we have different trust factor.

00:16:21: Because I see now with AIs they need oracles which tell truth And this is very hard and it's always been a heart problem for Google as well.

00:16:30: So how do you know?

00:16:32: How the weather has today in real life, right?

00:16:34: You need to connect or how?

00:16:36: if The soccer game is what's the real score?

00:16:39: What does the real school write?

00:16:39: now that you need these oracles and obviously like big things It's very easy like whether there's a big thing World Cup games are a big think but then in smaller things Very hot like Timon and Lisa Are they really?

00:16:51: that isn't question Right.

00:16:52: and what its?

00:16:53: what is their expertise?

00:16:56: Have they ever been on a conference, right?

00:16:58: And obviously like Google has made this very smart and the.

00:17:02: They didn't need us for real.

00:17:04: author.

00:17:04: A few years later because they figured it out themselves in The Knowledge Graph which is really smart Very smart.

00:17:09: how did that?

00:17:10: I still do not know How to Do That With Very Common Names Somehow.

00:17:14: They Do That

00:17:15: Yeah But Remember So Before That.

00:17:17: so This Is.

00:17:18: I Was Obsessed with It's before When They Started Scanning All The Books in the world like that was a big

00:17:27: project.

00:17:28: Yeah, there is an occasion where they were actually able to see how someone writes or talks and create identity of that person so being this same person and then matching it up?

00:17:43: So what they are missing with well-authored I think by their involvement And that confirmed a lot of the theory, I think.

00:17:52: That then made them go.

00:17:53: oh actually this makes sense and there is an identity print in how you write and talk but AI fucks it up!

00:18:06: Oh yeah so that's very interesting reverse question.

00:18:10: So i talked about this last year at Polish conference saying that in images also text there are watermarks watermarks from AI.

00:18:19: Yeah,

00:18:20: I understand that everybody says it's like the double hyphen is the watermark?

00:18:25: no That's not what i mean.

00:18:26: It was very easy for an AI to put a watermelon into something which will never notice because we as humans can cannot Understand the pattern.

00:18:33: but now What you're saying makes much more sense.

00:18:35: They Can see that there Is No Pattern so they Can See?

00:18:40: They Can Probably Detect AI Text Super Easy.

00:18:44: But They Can See That if I write a text without with AI, they will see that this is not my normal type how I write because it's very well structured.

00:18:54: It has all the commas and correct sentences which i would never use but then they would hundred percent know.

00:19:04: Yeah,

00:19:06: that will definitely be one way and but also what it would be.

00:19:09: more the more we use AI.

00:19:11: The harder you'll be to detect real authenticity of that person And this is a really sad thing.

00:19:18: It's because like Kurt Cobain said he said I rather be hated for who i am than to be loved For Who I'm Not.

00:19:29: What are driving two words?

00:19:31: Is there creating these personalities or the way of writing, all things that we think will make us perfect.

00:19:38: But the more perfect we try to be... The unhappier we fucking get.

00:19:43: because being authentic like representing yourself as you and being accepted is the real only way Of happiness.

00:19:53: in my opinion yeah.

00:19:55: And To Get the connection to SEO Sorry,

00:20:02: that was like a real personal one at the end.

00:20:04: But yeah I think it will become really easy to spot what is you and what is AI but also It'll be harder to create a footprint.

00:20:23: if use too much AI That won't be as much of.

00:20:27: are you talking in way is smart?

00:20:31: Is it, are you

00:20:33: authentic?".

00:20:34: I think AI will also need to find who's true.

00:20:37: The same as Google has always done with...is this actually a dodgy link or someone bought this or is this genuine?

00:20:46: and is there an actual signal of what they've bought?

00:20:50: And i think that you're absolutely right!

00:20:51: You said something before which was very interesting.

00:20:53: where we all humans are programmed authenticity.

00:20:59: And we have very weird, like spidey sense where a tingling or we have this very strong sensor as soon as we feel something is off?

00:21:08: Yeah I'm pretty sure everybody who's listening understands that what i'm saying Like this gut feeling there's the certain sense some things are.

00:21:15: and What do you see right now with all my friends Who obviously also in AI and then thinks they All See videos created on Instagram and they see text created and Everybody's telling me I see it for one second and i have the feeling its AI, just swipe over.

00:21:31: Right?

00:21:34: And that is something very interesting.

00:21:35: we as humans are already that good at identifying this.

00:21:42: Obviously like Google has let the AI spam thing run for maybe a year of creation or maybe one-and-a half years... ...I think they had enough data to identify everything.

00:21:53: We shouldn't be stupid too where we can easily game them because they have one of the best models with Gemini as well.

00:22:01: And I think that pretty smart, They also know that content created before two thousand twenty-two is probably real.

00:22:08: and yeah after that?

00:22:09: Probably not.

00:22:10: so

00:22:11: We have to Think like them and they always thinking big data sets and what you just said.

00:22:16: i think it's The biggest key To identifying.

00:22:19: So through the Gutenberg project there understand how people write to identify them without rail author.

00:22:23: So in reverse, they can always identify that this is not the human that had put their name beneath us.

00:22:30: And thus its AI and it gets no rankings.

00:22:33: Yeah exactly so.

00:22:35: authenticity In whatever form.

00:22:40: And this is again, why doing podcasts and stuff at social media.

00:22:45: Even like you were saying on Instagram if someone's doing a video and they're clearly reading off or it doesn't sound... You already know that It Doesn't Sound Like A Real Human Speaking Or It Doesn'T Sound Like Its Actual... It Is Genuine.

00:22:59: But That..You Can Understand People Wanting To You Know.

00:23:05: The Research in Google or the LLMs is one thing, but people are more like they're more focused on gaming algorithm and which is a very different thing because then you kind of gaining emotions off whoever's watching.

00:23:26: Which is that truly... That's a darker side of the internet In my opinion Because it didn't go down really badly

00:23:35: And it kind of works right now, but I won't work long term.

00:23:37: So i'm really keen on hearing what your thoughts are and what brands should do.

00:23:41: But before that a way to get really meaningful connections where you can actually meet me people is obviously SMX advanced.

00:23:48: so You're speaking at smx advance?

00:23:50: Tell me why conferences still matter.

00:23:52: in the time of we could ask Claude anything and will answer Anything.

00:23:55: there's nothing like learning in real life.

00:24:00: That Is just from their neuroscience part or apart of them being with People and having connection, seeing and being able to ask questions.

00:24:09: This is definitely how humans learn the best And also I think because we are doing fewer things in real life it's so important for us to do this.

00:24:25: SMX is always lovely!

00:24:26: That was actually my very first conference

00:24:34: with SMX.

00:24:37: That was in the Hilton Hotel.

00:24:42: I agree, there's something really special about being at a conference and not seeing the person on YouTube but real life.

00:24:50: Seeing them in real-time, having to be present... Hearing it one time at a speed of two x. And then also people misunderstand us the engagement afterwards, especially something like SMX Advanced which is a very close-knit group.

00:25:09: So it's small conference right?

00:25:11: It's an expert focus conference.

00:25:14: you can actually go up to Lisa or other speakers there and grab them talk with him but also all the attendees are super high level.

00:25:22: so these connections in between... You've heard some things being said.

00:25:29: then ask somebody else what do they think about that?

00:25:33: And then you get another perspective and then it forms kind of like this new thing.

00:25:37: You've learned, I think that is...you cannot do that by a course.

00:25:41: Honestly when I first started in SEO, It was like two thousand five and i start to go into conference there.

00:25:48: Two thousand six, two thousand seven The difference on my skill level once I got going because everyone's so bloody lovely In the end..I have missed their industry So much!

00:26:00: Because they willingness share and help.

00:26:03: I have,

00:26:04: in every stage of my business when i've been stuck or like what the hell?

00:26:09: What's going on?

00:26:10: there has been loads of SEOs so they're be like okay let me try this!

00:26:14: Or have you tried

00:26:15: that?!

00:26:18: the SU community is a special kind of community where people generally help and they're like most of them don't act like rock stars.

00:26:27: And therefore we'll be very happy to chat, I'm really happy to talk with anyone.

00:26:30: so you will have to stop me chatting if that's your problem?

00:26:34: I actually agree.

00:26:35: my first conference must've been somewhere i think either in the Hilton or something close around that time... That also took me every conference Yeah, and it really skyrocketed my knowledge.

00:26:49: And also my career to be honest like It was easily kicked me off Like that.

00:26:54: I could have never done That just by sitting in the office.

00:26:56: so yes Thank you for reminding Me.

00:26:58: that's actually a very good point.

00:27:00: yeah no i started at first conference.

00:27:02: two thousand seven Was The First time i spoke?

00:27:05: Two thousand nine is when i started My own agency.

00:27:08: there Is No Way i Could Have Done That Without The Knowledge That i've learned At Those Conferences.

00:27:13: For Sure Brands, what should brands do to actually increase their search authority?

00:27:20: What you think is like the things they should do right now in this AI era.

00:27:25: To really be increased authority and be more authentic?

00:27:29: It's a thing that I'm always banged on about.

00:27:32: You know there...I started as a tech SEO And then got obsessed with links and how links were done.

00:27:40: Guys, we don't need to be doing this shit way.

00:27:42: Why are you buying these links or exchanging?

00:27:46: There is a better way of doing

00:27:47: it.".

00:27:47: So I still believe that coming up with ideas for your brand... That isn't trying to sell your brand!

00:27:57: ...that's basically engaging people.

00:28:00: AI and the internet LLMs are still run on the internet.

00:28:05: It's finding information, and to be able get that authority you need to be there.

00:28:13: but where you are matters.

00:28:16: so my view has always been instead of fighting a hundred duck-sized horses I rather fight one horse sized duck And so I would rather try to get coverage and to get those links, that mention.

00:28:37: Now with AI search it isn't as focused on the links which means there should be more doable... ...to get coverage from big news sites or relevant sites for your industry?

00:28:54: And again, the ideas and stuff for this.

00:28:56: For me my passion was always creative campaigns in their ideas to think of.

00:29:00: but now you should also really think about the brand overall.

00:29:06: where else are you?

00:29:07: Like things like if your brand that podcasting works for?

00:29:11: That's great!

00:29:12: Another authority building Obviously socials is about engagement Any content.

00:29:19: I guess engagement will always improve authority both in SEO and AI search.

00:29:26: I'd refuse to call it GEO, by the way.

00:29:30: Yeah that discussion is horrible By The Way.

00:29:32: GUI don't think there's a good term for this And i don't Think It Helps The Industry?

00:29:36: I also believe That In Two Or Three Years We Will Have Not Being Separated Will Just Be The Same Again But We Won.

00:29:43: Probably Called SEO Because It Just Makes More Sense.

00:29:46: but If I Would Call Anything I would Prefer To Call It AI Search because I Think AI Search Is Correct.

00:29:53: I see a lot of emails with Geo.

00:29:54: So, yeah let's see where it goes.

00:29:58: but so coming back on that fighting duck-sized horses

00:30:04: how

00:30:05: big do you think is the impact?

00:30:06: Of one really big publishing house playing your story versus small ones.

00:30:13: The Guardian was obviously super big in the UK and US would have like Washington Post or New York Post things ten X harder to get into, maybe even a hundred X harder.

00:30:23: No

00:30:23: they're not that's bullshit it's only so.

00:30:27: this is the view and I have had a lot of people tell me oh its alot harder since you left.

00:30:32: i'm like thats.

00:30:32: convenient mate but we had a verb.

00:30:38: um We uh Had one gambling client.

00:30:42: So uh Not poke about casino clients That we got coverage for on The Tonight Show Like actual featured on the tonight show with the logo.

00:30:53: The campaign printed out like that should not be possible for SEO campaign, but it was possible It is.

00:31:00: if their ideas good enough?

00:31:02: The Guardian will take you.

00:31:03: we have guardian hundreds and hundreds of times For different clients.

00:31:08: in fact beat had BBC coverage so many times there.

00:31:11: BBC contact us an asked If he could do campaigns for them.

00:31:14: They didn't need the SEO, but they just wanted us to come up with ideas.

00:31:18: So we did like five ideas for BBC Future that we did over... That's a two thousand and eighteen I think it was.

00:31:24: And so if i think their kind of mindset?

00:31:28: This is again wise about people It is you have to hire people who don't think its impossible.

00:31:36: because I think the SEO industry, I left you guys for a few years and everyone's like oh no this is not possible anymore.

00:31:42: Like i'm telling you it hasn't changed but everyone's convinced that It Is!

00:31:47: But I would much rather thinking of an idea That The Guardian will Not Say No To... The challenge with the publishing world.

00:31:57: Their metric has changed so much in the last two decades, even a last decade.

00:32:02: it's changed enormously.

00:32:03: They are mostly just measured on engagement.

00:32:06: Engagement meaning comments shares views and... So that is the most important thing they need which is why I part from The Guardian.

00:32:18: most papers writing clickbait headlines but The the because of that.

00:32:25: it means that they need content all the time.

00:32:28: They need ideas.

00:32:29: They need things that haven't been written about.

00:32:31: they need uniqueness, right?

00:32:33: So you just need to come up with an idea That not fifty other people have thought off and that doesn't mean there has to be completely new.

00:32:40: It does need to be different enough and interesting enough To get the coverage like we had go compare as a client which is their insurance kind of like aggregator.

00:32:52: so car insurance was the big term.

00:32:54: We got them covered, loads of coverage in Australia randomly and we were like what the hell is going on here?

00:33:00: And they ended up printing... So it's about electric cars and their charging points.

00:33:05: you know how little how few charging points there are although they're selling loads of electric cars!

00:33:11: And Australia was at the very bottom.

00:33:13: They ended up printed out our campaign put-and bringing it up in The Senate In Australia.

00:33:20: You just need to think of the idea that it's interesting, surprising good enough.

00:33:27: That will get the coverage.

00:33:29: but can we please not focus on citations or blogs?

00:33:37: I see an increase in selling links and stuff again like

00:33:41: come along!

00:33:42: Oh yeah back up a lot.

00:33:45: take me maybe through ideation, contacting the papers and maybe even tracking or finding out if it was published.

00:33:57: Maybe because I'd love to understand how that works in probably the audience as well like just to understand what you've done on what to expect.

00:34:05: also waiting times?

00:34:06: Because sometimes we have to wait quite a long time until it gets published right.

00:34:10: Yeah, well not usually.

00:34:12: It's more the problem with outreach.

00:34:15: so I had a conference called Outreach when i got really interested in this bit.

00:34:22: we were still calling it link development or we call that content marketing for Minis in two thousand fifteen and rebranded to outreach because they was outreaching with content.

00:34:32: And so I had this conference, outreach conference about exactly the process of what we were doing.

00:34:41: But it's not that difficult!

00:34:42: So one... The idea is all-of-it and VR didn't look like an SEO agency typically because if you have designers developers data copywriters It looked like a creative agency.

00:34:58: Our slogan was We think like a fifties addict sec And so it is all about the idea and execution of a campaign.

00:35:10: That's the most important bit, The Outreach Bit.

00:35:13: It almost like the easiest bit getting out there.

00:35:18: We were always very reused.

00:35:20: for years we used Bustream which I think was better platform project managing all of the outreach.

00:35:35: and then I think The biggest mistake people do for outreach is that they will contact one person at one paper.

00:35:44: Yeah, no contact loads of them.

00:35:46: They're working on totally different deaths like don't be picky They're not going to be mad so you also can't.

00:35:51: it's their problem if they don't pick up And also just once And so with bus room, you would see whether they open it.

00:35:59: So then when they've opened twice maybe you'll go back to them.

00:36:04: but all depends on the person doing outreach and there's no one right way.

00:36:08: I will always let people do that work for them.

00:36:12: some people write long emails of details like.

00:36:14: this is their idea.

00:36:16: here's a link... Some people just write short email and some average people send two hundred emails in a week and another one was said fifty, but they will get the same amount of links.

00:36:33: Speaking

00:36:34: about process is not the thing like you just it's more attitude.

00:36:40: It's ninety percent attitude ten percent process.

00:36:44: And this why I didn't hire anyone with previous experience.

00:36:48: because people have previously done digital PR by their bed.

00:36:51: They say that's no possible.

00:36:56: And so most people that worked at Verve came straight from university or work in totally different industries, but they had that thing.

00:37:05: That things I just knew was the ability to keep going even if someone said no and he wouldn't dishearten them.

00:37:13: So If anything i would say you want be good of this.

00:37:16: hire a person with the stretch been through something, because people that have been stretched like you know rather bounce.

00:37:24: when you stretch them they become bigger.

00:37:26: And then if what do you just buy?

00:37:28: They're tiny.

00:37:29: the problem with these bands If you'd expect them to be here there's break but people who've had some shit happen in their life won't go boo-hoo.

00:37:41: someone was rude from me from The Guardian will keep going.

00:37:45: Amazing Lisa I can't wait for you.

00:37:48: at SMX Advanced Where can people reach out in the meantime?

00:37:53: You could go to echte-vision.com on LinkedIn, Lisa Porsche looks like it says Pashi I've given up my name and also EchteLisa on Instagram.

00:38:06: very happy to chat really looking forward.

00:38:08: coming back to Germany i love the smx crew is kind of where born in their speaking world.

00:38:19: Yes, I'm looking forward to it

00:38:21: one hundred percent and we should definitely do another podcast focusing on some other topics that were discussed over.

00:38:27: figure That out And then sequence that.

00:38:29: but there was amazing talking to you.

00:38:30: Thank You for the insights On how The outreach works because i think that is very valuable for everybody Out there Because i Think There's a false Perspective on this.

00:38:39: oh yeah?

00:38:40: Yeah, so thank you Lisa for being here.

00:38:43: Thank You For Being Here and I can only say everybody who loved this obviously give us a like Give Us A subscribe.

00:38:48: you know how to do.

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00:38:58: When We Have amazing Other Speakers And Guests Here Then i Can Only Say Thank You for Watching and Would Love to See again when we're Back Here With Marketing Meet Technology and The SMX Specials.

00:39:09: That's

00:39:15: it for this episode of Marketing Meets Technology.

00:39:18: See you next time!